Michael Kammers & David Nichtern offer perspectives on the nature of freedom and how mindful leadership affects the systems we live within.


In this timely David’s View episode, Michael Kammers joins David for a discussion that dives into the importance of mindful leadership. Taking an honest look at our current leadership models in the United States, the Dharma Moon Duo offers insight into dancing and conflict resolution, ego and intention, capacity and dysfunction, as well as discernment, communication, and freedom.

“Leadership to me is also recognizing what people’s natural capacity is, which is totally interwoven with their dysfunction.” – David Nichtern


Dancing, Mindful Leadership, & Conflict Resolution

Cracking open this special David’s View episode of Creativity, Spirituality, & Making a Buck, David and Michael open the podcast by reflecting on mindful leadership through the metaphor of a couple dancing. Through this lens, they discuss the importance of training in the principles of leadership and conflict resolution—crucial steps which most of our political and economic leaders forgo.

“In the absence of training, leadership turns into a grab for power, for control, for dominance, for access to resources, for a sense of strengthening identification rather than unification.” – David Nichtern


Ego, Intention & Leadership // Capacity & Dysfunction (5:00)

Speaking to the nuance of balancing ego while in a position of leadership, Michael and David dig into how intention plays a major role in helping one’s leadership cultivate community and expand wellbeing. From here, they discuss how good leadership recognizes and works with people’s capacity and dysfunction.

“A leader has to take a big aerial view of the whole situation and somehow become a transformer. A leader has to know how to transform energy—to not reject energy, to see people’s gifts, to see their obstacles, and continuously re-orchestrate the situation so that people have a chance to grow.”  – David Nichtern
Discernment, Communication, & Freedom (11:28)

Speaking to living in the United States under ego-driven self-serving leaders, David and Michael reflect on the importance of discernment, communication, and freedom as cornerstone qualities within mindful leadership models.

“In America in regards to freedom, part of the reason things are tipping a certain way is because of impure view. What do we think freedom is? What are the mythologies and stories underpinning what we think freedom is? And how are those stories leading to an entrenched sense of suffering? If we shifted our view of freedom, perhaps we might have less suffering.” – Michael Kammers



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